How have you been killed for?

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Imralu
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How have you been killed for?

Post by Imralu »

:eng: How have you been killed for?

Most languages can't passivise any role other than a direct and English is a little bit strange in allowing prepositions to join in on the passive phrase. In case it's not clear, the intended meaning of this sentence is In what manner has/have [unnamed participant(s)] killed [unnamed participant(s)] for you?

Because of another thread, I just wanted to show of Swahili's applicative passive and make the weirdest sentence I could with just one word.

:tan: Swahili

Umeuliwaje?
u-me-u-li-w-a-je
2s-PRF-kill-APPL-PASS-Ö-how

:ger:

I can't imagine ever saying this in German but I guess it would be something like this ... but I have problems with the simplicity of the "wie" ...

Wie ist für dich getötet worden?
how is for 2s.ACC kill.PST.PTCPL become.PST.PTCPL*

*special form only used for passive

Lol, damn, I have no idea how to gloss for German ... I don't remember abbreviations of forms that are normal in IE languages like past participles
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Parlox »

Aĉaî Paîŝen lu ûân’u Kaotu ç̂avĉa ç̂afo
[at͡ʃai paid͡ʒen lɯ uɶn'ɯ kaotɯ ʀavt͡ʃa ʀafɤ]
/How paige PAST kill-PAST kota for you/
In what manner has Paige killed Kota for you

I changed the sentence a bit to fit my conlang better.
:con: Gândölansch (Gondolan)Feongkrwe (Feongrkean)Tamhanddön (Tamanthon)Θανηλοξαμαψⱶ (Thanelotic)Yônjcerth (Yaponese)Ba̧supan (Basupan)Mùthoķán (Mothaucian) :con:
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Imralu »

Parlox wrote:Aĉaî Paîŝen lu ûân’u Kaotu ç̂avĉa ç̂afo
[at͡ʃai paid͡ʒen lɯ uɶn'ɯ kaotɯ ʀavt͡ʃa ʀafɤ]
/How paige PAST kill-PAST kota for you/
In what manner has Paige killed Kota for you

I changed the sentence a bit to fit my conlang better.
Can you do it without mentioning the killer and the killed?
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Creyeditor »

Imralu wrote: :deu:

I can't imagine ever saying this in German but I guess it would be something like this ... but I have problems with the simplicity of the "wie" ...

Wie ist für dich getötet worden?
how is for 2s.ACC kill.PST.PTCPL become.PST.PTCPL*
German actually has an easier time if you used 3rd person inanimate complements of the prepositions. At least that's what my native speaker intuitions tell ne.



:deu: Context: Talking about some object, that people are ready to kill for.
Wie ist da-für getötet worden?
how is there-for kill.PST.PTCPL become.PST.PTCPL
`How has it been killed for?' (I'm not sure if this works in English)
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by kiwikami »

:con: Undercommon

This works in UC with any preposition that has separate noun-and verb-modifying forms. The thing being killed for ends up as the subject of a passive verb, with a noun-modifying benefactive preposition where the object would go.

Şas kiil kýlaallt?
[sʲas tʃil kɨi̯ˈlaɬt]
şa-s kiil keuijl-allt
2sg:PFV.TEL-2sg BEN kill:PST-how
How have you been killed for?

contrasted with:

Ia mal kýlaallt mre?
[ja mal kɨi̯ˈlaɬt mrɛ]
ia mal keuijl-allt na bre
3sg:PFV.TEL OBV kill:PST-how you BEN
How has it killed things for you?
Last edited by kiwikami on 11 Jul 2017 19:32, edited 1 time in total.
Edit: Substituted a string instrument for a French interjection.

:eng: :mrgreen: | :fra: [:)] | ASL [:S] | :deu: [:|] | :tan: [:(] | :nav: [:'(]
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Parlox »

Imralu wrote:
Parlox wrote:Aĉaî Paîŝen lu ûân’u Kaotu ç̂avĉa ç̂afo
[at͡ʃai paid͡ʒen lɯ uɶn'ɯ kaotɯ ʀavt͡ʃa ʀafɤ]
/How paige PAST kill-PAST kota for you/
In what manner has Paige killed Kota for you

I changed the sentence a bit to fit my conlang better.
Can you do it without mentioning the killer and the killed?
Yes i could, but the speakers tend to be precise with their wording, and they try not to be vague.
:con: Gândölansch (Gondolan)Feongkrwe (Feongrkean)Tamhanddön (Tamanthon)Θανηλοξαμαψⱶ (Thanelotic)Yônjcerth (Yaponese)Ba̧supan (Basupan)Mùthoķán (Mothaucian) :con:
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Lambuzhao »

How have you been killed for?
Hubba-wha??
I do not think English can be made to work this way. The PRP shunted to the end doesn't feel right in this DAT/BENE guise. Also, either a dummy 3SG/PL PRN for the SBJ or OBJ kind of needs to be in there. stat.


:lat:
Quo modo tibi interfecti sunt?
INTERR.ADJ.ABL manner.ABL 2SG.DAT kill<PFT.PASS.PTCP>M.NOM.PL be<PRS>3PL
NB: This makes no specific mention of neither the killers nor the killed. But the 2SG cannot be the SBJ --> must be in DAT.

I think one of the closest, most succinct, and most elegant IE langs for this kind of work is :grc:, q.v. [->]

:grc:
πώς ἀπεκτείνω;
[po:s a.pek.'tε:.no:]
kill<MED.AOR>2SG
How did you get {them} killed {for you}?
Spoiler:
BTW - That is not the <ACT.PRS.INDIC>1SG ἀπεκτείνω, but, in reality, the honest-to-goodness contracted form of the PASSIVE AORIST INDICATIVE 2SG ἀπεκτείνᾰ+/ου/ [->] ἀπεκτείνω Image
The Greek Middle Voice is used in all sorts of reflexive, benefactive, reciprocal ways. In this case, the Middle verb can have an unexpressed Direct Object, and even actual agent of the action, whereby the SBJ of the verb is really the benefactor, who may or may not sully their hands in the doing of the action, but in some way gets it done.
Gotta [<3] :grc: Middle Voice! I had to consult the big gun: Herbert Weir Smyth [4.44.1719], which see:
http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... tion%3D104

…that is, if I rightly caught the BK's drift. :wat:

BTW, I wonder if Sanskrit can do something like this as well (?)
:wat: :wat: :?:
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Imralu »

Lambuzhao wrote:Hubba-wha??
I do not think English can be made to work this way. The PRP shunted to the end doesn't feel right in this DAT/BENE guise. Also, either a dummy 3SG/PL PRN for the SBJ or OBJ kind of needs to be in there. stat.
Nah, it's fine. It's just a weird sentence without any context. Do you prefer cooking dinner yourself or being cooked for? I feel awkward about people doing things for me. I don't want to be cleaned up after. I've felt like I was not really welcome in my own home before, like I was just being put up with. I prefer living alone, but I guess when you're sick it's nice to be looked after by a flatmate or a family member. I have a chair in my room that should never be sat on. It's really just there to be looked at.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Imralu »

Creyeditor wrote:
Imralu wrote: :deu:

I can't imagine ever saying this in German but I guess it would be something like this ... but I have problems with the simplicity of the "wie" ...

Wie ist für dich getötet worden?
how is for 2s.ACC kill.PST.PTCPL become.PST.PTCPL*
German actually has an easier time if you used 3rd person inanimate complements of the prepositions. At least that's what my native speaker intuitions tell ne.



:deu: Context: Talking about some object, that people are ready to kill for.
Wie ist da-für getötet worden?
how is there-for kill.PST.PTCPL become.PST.PTCPL
`How has it been killed for?' (I'm not sure if this works in English)
But where's the sense of "you"? And yeah, I was deliberately trying to do this in passive, but I guess the most natural equivalent would be "Wie hat man (jemanden) für dich getötet?"
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by marvelous »

:epo: Kiel oni mortigis por vi?
/ˈki.el ˈo.ni moɾˈti.gis poɾ vi/
kiel oni mort-ig-is por vi
how PRO.INDEF die-CAUS-PST PREP.BEN you
How has one killed for you?

Of course it might be translated other ways depending on the specific context. Oni can be replaced with iu (someone), iuj (some people), ili (they), etc.
:heb: I have gained self-respect and left. :yid:
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Imralu »

marvelous wrote::epo: Kiel oni mortigis por vi?
/ˈki.el ˈo.ni moɾˈti.gis poɾ vi/
kiel oni mort-ig-is por vi
how PRO.INDEF die-CAUS-PST PREP.BEN you
How has one killed for you?

Of course it might be translated other ways depending on the specific context. Oni can be replaced with iu (someone), iuj (some people), ili (they), etc.
I always want to be over the top with Esperanto and say things like Kiel vi pormortigigxintas? I guess "por" in that case, if anyone ever did this, would be kind of like an applicative.
Glossing Abbreviations: COMP = comparative, C = complementiser, ACS / ICS = accessible / inaccessible, GDV = gerundive, SPEC / NSPC = specific / non-specific, AG = agent, E = entity (person, animal, thing)
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Creyeditor »

Imralu wrote:
Creyeditor wrote:
Imralu wrote: :deu:

I can't imagine ever saying this in German but I guess it would be something like this ... but I have problems with the simplicity of the "wie" ...

Wie ist für dich getötet worden?
how is for 2s.ACC kill.PST.PTCPL become.PST.PTCPL*
German actually has an easier time if you used 3rd person inanimate complements of the prepositions. At least that's what my native speaker intuitions tell ne.



:deu: Context: Talking about some object, that people are ready to kill for.
Wie ist da-für getötet worden?
how is there-for kill.PST.PTCPL become.PST.PTCPL
`How has it been killed for?' (I'm not sure if this works in English)
But where's the sense of "you"? "
That's the difference I mentioned, third person instead of second person.
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Lambuzhao »

Sorry to nitpick, but this is really being a bee in my bonnet for some reason. [:S] [:'(]

Maybe the verb 'kill' doesn't work in this circumstance in English, b/c if I substitute 'kill' for 'cook'
Do you prefer cooking dinner yourself or being cooked for?
[->] Do you prefer killing them yourself or being killed for? [cross]

My first question, as an :eng:L1 speaker of about 40 years, is 'Killed for what?'
not 'Killed for whom?'

Conversely, I could just about wrap my head around this example:

How have you been cooked for?
Which to me, sounds like 'How do you like your meal?' 'What are some things/ways that (ur parents/grandparents/favorite aunt or uncle) usually have cooked for you?'

But not the leap required to go from 'How do you like your killings?' , 'What are some things/ways in which (Boba Fett/Deckard/Mickey the Mook/Horseface Harry/Dengar/4-LOM/The Predator/The Dunn Brothers) usually have killed for you?' , and the sentence in question.


Something about it just breaks down. In my mind, it doesn't behave like a phrasal verb expecting a beneficiary.
On the one hand, maybe 'cook' is one of those tacitly reflexive verbs, like 'get up' or 'sit down', where the beneficiary/OBJ is understood but not spoken. On the other, 'kill' does not have an automatic, inherent reflexive quality. I don't know if this makes sense, though :?:

IMHO it's too much of a leap to use kill that way in English. Looking at it another way, :grc: takes the issue head-on by having a whole mood wherein any verb can be made to work, and be about as non-specific regarding who actually kills, or is killed, as the Swahili.

[o.O] :wat: [O.o]

Ha ha. :eng: fail. [:P]
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Znex »

Lambuzhao wrote:My first question, as an :eng:L1 speaker of about 40 years, is 'Killed for what?'
not 'Killed for whom?'

Conversely, I could just about wrap my head around this example:

How have you been cooked for?
[+1]

But this can be done in Apsiska, in line with the Russian reflexive pattern.

:con: Apsiska

Фиу фримоудєзи соу мати?
how PF-cook-PST.2SG=MID 2SG.NOM meal-DIR

vs.

Фиу фриуспози соу?
how PF-kill.PST=MID 2SG.NOM
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by horizont »

Hmm, Im not sure if it works like that in russian.
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Re: How have you been killed for?

Post by Znex »

horizont wrote:Hmm, Im not sure if it works like that in russian.
To be fair, I don't think it does either. I'm not totally decided on whether it should work in Apsiska.
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