It's always surprisingly to learn something about your own language. I always assumed a fishwife was the wife of a fisherman. It's where I got the inspiration for the word Fischervrou in Lapdeutsch. I guess back in the day those two ideas were often largely synonymous though.
Lapdeutsch
Re: Lapdeutsch
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Re: Lapdeutsch
Also "wife" used to just mean "woman". It's actually the first element of "woman" (< OE wīfmann, lit. "woman-person").All4Ɇn wrote: ↑07 Dec 2018 22:27 It's always surprisingly to learn something about your own language. I always assumed a fishwife was the wife of a fisherman. It's where I got the inspiration for the word Fischervrou in Lapdeutsch. I guess back in the day those two ideas were often largely synonymous though.
That's neat to learn. It means "songstress" is redundant from an etymological standpoint.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Right, much like Modern Hochdeutsch "Frau" can mean both woman and wife.Dormouse559 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2018 23:10Also "wife" used to just mean "woman". It's actually the first element of "woman" (< OE wīfmann, lit. "woman-person").All4Ɇn wrote: ↑07 Dec 2018 22:27 It's always surprisingly to learn something about your own language. I always assumed a fishwife was the wife of a fisherman. It's where I got the inspiration for the word Fischervrou in Lapdeutsch. I guess back in the day those two ideas were often largely synonymous though.
Re: Lapdeutsch
This much I knew but I didn't realize it had any remnants in modern English.Dormouse559 wrote: ↑07 Dec 2018 23:10Also "wife" used to just mean "woman". It's actually the first element of "woman"
Edit: Actually I suppose "I now pronounce you man and wife" would be another example of this
Re: Lapdeutsch
wife/woman and man/husband are often the same terms, or at least there's often a great deal of overlap. In "man and wife", I don't know if the sense is "man and woman", or "husband and wife"...
Similarly, the old alternation between kweno (woman) and kwe:niz (wife), from which we get 'quean' (whore) and 'queen' (monarch).
Oh, there's an interesting gender alternation along similar lines! A man whose wife is unfaithful is a "cuckold", while a woman whose husband is unfaithful is a "cuckquean".
Similarly, the old alternation between kweno (woman) and kwe:niz (wife), from which we get 'quean' (whore) and 'queen' (monarch).
Oh, there's an interesting gender alternation along similar lines! A man whose wife is unfaithful is a "cuckold", while a woman whose husband is unfaithful is a "cuckquean".
Re: Lapdeutsch
Declension of Deutscher/Deutsche
Just a small addition to the info on declensions and feminizing agent nouns. Traditionally the nouns Deutscher (male German), Deutsche (female German), and Deutsche (Germans) were declined the same as regular adjectives with the exception of an additional -r in the mixed/strong nominative masculine form. Thus the declension was as follows
This declension is largely seen as outdated and is no longer commonly used. Instead the nouns have become regularized into following the same declension rules as A and O declension nouns, albeit one with a shared plural used for both genders as well as a collective noun:
Nominative/Accusative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutsche
Dative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutschen
Genitive: Deutschers/Deutsche/Deutsche
The only exception to this rule is when the plural form is used after a determiner that takes mixed/weak adjectives. In this scenario, Deutsche acts just like the determiner beide and becomes Deutschen in all 4 cases. Note that like with beiden, even though the mixed plural ending in modern language is -e, the mixed form of Deutsche remains exceptionally Deutschen.
Just a small addition to the info on declensions and feminizing agent nouns. Traditionally the nouns Deutscher (male German), Deutsche (female German), and Deutsche (Germans) were declined the same as regular adjectives with the exception of an additional -r in the mixed/strong nominative masculine form. Thus the declension was as follows
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Nominative/Accusative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutsche
Dative: Deutscher/Deutsche/Deutschen
Genitive: Deutschers/Deutsche/Deutsche
The only exception to this rule is when the plural form is used after a determiner that takes mixed/weak adjectives. In this scenario, Deutsche acts just like the determiner beide and becomes Deutschen in all 4 cases. Note that like with beiden, even though the mixed plural ending in modern language is -e, the mixed form of Deutsche remains exceptionally Deutschen.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Weihnachten un Christdag- Christmas
Given that it's that time of the year I thought I could talk about the two Lapdeutsch words for Christmas. Unlike in German where Christmas is known as Weihnachten, and Dutch where it's known as Kerstmiss, Lapdeutsch makes a distinction between two different words for Christmas, both of which are similar to the words in the previously mentioned languages. Below are the different usages, with some terms using them to help demonstrate the differences
Weihnachten (n)
The most generic word for Christmas. It's used for the season in general, things/events related to the season, and for the evening on Christmas day. Like in German, Weihnachten is a neuter noun but takes a plural adjective ending in greetings and becomes Weihnachts- when used in compounds.
Terms using it:
Feine Weihnachten- Merry Christmas (used everywhere except between Christmas morning and Christmas evening)
Tweide Weihnachtsdag- Second day of Christmas
Weihnachtseiland- Christmasy island
Weihnachtsferië- Christmasy vacation
Weihnachtsgift- Christmas present
Weihnachtsküüksjen- Christmas cookie
Weihnachtslied- Christmas carol/Christmas song
Weihnachtsmorgen- Christmasy morning
Weihnachtsmorgens- Christmasy breakfast
Christdag (m)
Christdag is a lot more specific than Weihnachten and is only used to refer to three specific things: Christmas Day as a whole, Christmas morning (after midnight) as opposed to Christmas evening, or for the combination of Christmas and Boxing Day.
Terms using it:
Feinen Christdag- Merry Christmas (only said between Christmas morning and Christmas evening such as after church)
Tweide Christdag- Boxing Day
Christdagseiland- Christmas Island (because it was sighted on Christmas Day)
Christdagsferië- Christmas break (although the break may encompass days before Christmas, Christmas Day is the focus of the break)
Christdagsgift- Christmas present (opened Christmas morning; doesn't apply to Germans but could be used for Americans)
Christdagsküüksjen- Christmas cookie (baked Christmas morning)
Christdagslied- Christmas carol/Christmas song (specifically a religious one about Christmas Day)
Christdagsmorgen- Christmas morning
Christdagsmorgens- Christmas breakfast
And so depending on when you may be reading this, feine Weihnachten efte feinen Christdag!
Given that it's that time of the year I thought I could talk about the two Lapdeutsch words for Christmas. Unlike in German where Christmas is known as Weihnachten, and Dutch where it's known as Kerstmiss, Lapdeutsch makes a distinction between two different words for Christmas, both of which are similar to the words in the previously mentioned languages. Below are the different usages, with some terms using them to help demonstrate the differences
Weihnachten (n)
The most generic word for Christmas. It's used for the season in general, things/events related to the season, and for the evening on Christmas day. Like in German, Weihnachten is a neuter noun but takes a plural adjective ending in greetings and becomes Weihnachts- when used in compounds.
Terms using it:
Feine Weihnachten- Merry Christmas (used everywhere except between Christmas morning and Christmas evening)
Tweide Weihnachtsdag- Second day of Christmas
Weihnachtseiland- Christmasy island
Weihnachtsferië- Christmasy vacation
Weihnachtsgift- Christmas present
Weihnachtsküüksjen- Christmas cookie
Weihnachtslied- Christmas carol/Christmas song
Weihnachtsmorgen- Christmasy morning
Weihnachtsmorgens- Christmasy breakfast
Christdag (m)
Christdag is a lot more specific than Weihnachten and is only used to refer to three specific things: Christmas Day as a whole, Christmas morning (after midnight) as opposed to Christmas evening, or for the combination of Christmas and Boxing Day.
Terms using it:
Feinen Christdag- Merry Christmas (only said between Christmas morning and Christmas evening such as after church)
Tweide Christdag- Boxing Day
Christdagseiland- Christmas Island (because it was sighted on Christmas Day)
Christdagsferië- Christmas break (although the break may encompass days before Christmas, Christmas Day is the focus of the break)
Christdagsgift- Christmas present (opened Christmas morning; doesn't apply to Germans but could be used for Americans)
Christdagsküüksjen- Christmas cookie (baked Christmas morning)
Christdagslied- Christmas carol/Christmas song (specifically a religious one about Christmas Day)
Christdagsmorgen- Christmas morning
Christdagsmorgens- Christmas breakfast
And so depending on when you may be reading this, feine Weihnachten efte feinen Christdag!
Re: Lapdeutsch
Present Tense Verbs
Regular Verbs
In regular verbs, the present tense endings are practically identical to Standard German.
1st Person Singular: -e or -
2nd Person Singular: -s
3rd Person Singular: -t
1st Person Plural: -en
2nd Person Plural: -t
3rd Person Plural: -en
Irregularities
1. The -e ending in the first person singular present indicative is typically seen as being the correct ending to most verbs but is in fact an overcorrection borrowed from Standard German. It's very common in writing (particularly formal writing) but in communication it's often dropped and is practically never used in informal communication. Some irregular verbs never take the ending -e even in formal speech. Compare "ich sehe" (SG) vs. "ik seh" (LD).
2. Verbs with stems ending -s/-sch/-z have no ending in the second person singular if they undergo a vowel change e.g: du lies (you read). If they do not undergo a vowel change, they take the ending -t e.g: du passt (you fit). This -t is typically unpronounced when followed by dé or du but is nevertheless always written. Verbs ending in -st take the ending -t but it is always unpronounced
3. Verbs with stems ending in -d/-t have no ending in the 3rd person singular except for the verb eten (to eat) which has the form "he itt" (he eats). This is only done to avoid confusion between it (it) and itt (eats).
4. Verbs with stems ending in -d/-t take the ending -et in the 2nd person plural.
Stem Changes
There are two major kinds of stem changes in Lapdeutsch
Vowel Change
This change only ever happens in strong and mixed verbs. In the second and third person singular forms, the main vowel in the stem of the verb can change. Below are the different patterns it can undertake.
1. /a ɑː ɔ oː ʊ uː/ -> /ɛ ɛː œ øː ʏ yː/ (umlaut), e.g: sugen (to suck) -> du süügs (you suck)
2. /œʏ̯/ -> /yː/, e.g: leugen (to lie) -> du lüügs (you lie)
3. /ɛ/ -> /ɪ/, e.g: werpen (to throw) -> du wirps (you throw)
4. /eː/ -> /iː/, e.g: stelen (to steal) -> du stiels (you steal)
5. /eː/ -> /ɪ/, e.g: geven (to give) -> du givs (you give)
6. /ɛ/ -> /eː/, e.g: scheppen (to create) -> du scheeps (you create)
7. /œ/ -> /ɛ/, only occurs in nömmen (to call/name) -> du nemms (you call/name)
In addition, although it is neither a strong or mixed verb, the verb kopen (to buy) undergoes an umlaut in the second and third person singular forms, thus du kööps (you buy). It's a completely regular verb aside from this change.
Schwa Insertion
Verbs ending in some complicated consonant clusters change their stem in every tense when the ending isn't -e/-en/-end. Additionally, these verbs never take the -e ending in the first person singular present indicative and thus undergo the stem change there as well. Below is an example of the verb conjugation
Teeknen (to draw)
1st Person Singular: Teeken
2nd Person Singular: Teekens
3rd Person Singular: Teekent
1st Person Plural: Teeknen
2nd Person Plural: Teekent
3rd Person Plural: Teeknen
Other verbs with this conjugation include aadmen (to breathe), oppnen (to open), and sammlen (to collect)
Regular Verbs
In regular verbs, the present tense endings are practically identical to Standard German.
1st Person Singular: -e or -
2nd Person Singular: -s
3rd Person Singular: -t
1st Person Plural: -en
2nd Person Plural: -t
3rd Person Plural: -en
Irregularities
1. The -e ending in the first person singular present indicative is typically seen as being the correct ending to most verbs but is in fact an overcorrection borrowed from Standard German. It's very common in writing (particularly formal writing) but in communication it's often dropped and is practically never used in informal communication. Some irregular verbs never take the ending -e even in formal speech. Compare "ich sehe" (SG) vs. "ik seh" (LD).
2. Verbs with stems ending -s/-sch/-z have no ending in the second person singular if they undergo a vowel change e.g: du lies (you read). If they do not undergo a vowel change, they take the ending -t e.g: du passt (you fit). This -t is typically unpronounced when followed by dé or du but is nevertheless always written. Verbs ending in -st take the ending -t but it is always unpronounced
3. Verbs with stems ending in -d/-t have no ending in the 3rd person singular except for the verb eten (to eat) which has the form "he itt" (he eats). This is only done to avoid confusion between it (it) and itt (eats).
4. Verbs with stems ending in -d/-t take the ending -et in the 2nd person plural.
Stem Changes
There are two major kinds of stem changes in Lapdeutsch
Vowel Change
This change only ever happens in strong and mixed verbs. In the second and third person singular forms, the main vowel in the stem of the verb can change. Below are the different patterns it can undertake.
1. /a ɑː ɔ oː ʊ uː/ -> /ɛ ɛː œ øː ʏ yː/ (umlaut), e.g: sugen (to suck) -> du süügs (you suck)
2. /œʏ̯/ -> /yː/, e.g: leugen (to lie) -> du lüügs (you lie)
3. /ɛ/ -> /ɪ/, e.g: werpen (to throw) -> du wirps (you throw)
4. /eː/ -> /iː/, e.g: stelen (to steal) -> du stiels (you steal)
5. /eː/ -> /ɪ/, e.g: geven (to give) -> du givs (you give)
6. /ɛ/ -> /eː/, e.g: scheppen (to create) -> du scheeps (you create)
7. /œ/ -> /ɛ/, only occurs in nömmen (to call/name) -> du nemms (you call/name)
In addition, although it is neither a strong or mixed verb, the verb kopen (to buy) undergoes an umlaut in the second and third person singular forms, thus du kööps (you buy). It's a completely regular verb aside from this change.
Schwa Insertion
Verbs ending in some complicated consonant clusters change their stem in every tense when the ending isn't -e/-en/-end. Additionally, these verbs never take the -e ending in the first person singular present indicative and thus undergo the stem change there as well. Below is an example of the verb conjugation
Teeknen (to draw)
1st Person Singular: Teeken
2nd Person Singular: Teekens
3rd Person Singular: Teekent
1st Person Plural: Teeknen
2nd Person Plural: Teekent
3rd Person Plural: Teeknen
Other verbs with this conjugation include aadmen (to breathe), oppnen (to open), and sammlen (to collect)
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 02 Apr 2019 12:30, edited 5 times in total.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Thanks for all your responses! Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread.
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The user formerly known as "shimobaatar".
(she)
(she)
Re: Lapdeutsch
Your responses are definitely appreciated!shimobaatar wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019 18:01Thanks for all your responses! Sorry it's taken me so long to get back to this thread.
That actually makes the sentence a lot clearer. Changing it to that nowshimobaatar wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019 18:01Oh, sorry about that. I thought that might have been a typo because, for some reason, I would have expected a word like "merged" to be used.
Yep!
All4Ɇn wrote: ↑08 Nov 2018 08:27 Beidet (Both)
This word occurs as a pronoun in both the singular and plural but only in the plural when used as a determiner. The singular form is always used for two situations or two choices and can be used with objects, and when doing so treats them as a collective whole. The plural is always used for people and can also be used for objects.
Wolldes du swimmen gahn efte schuren gahn? Beidet sind me gud- Would you like to go swimming or go shopping? Both are good to me. (between two situations or choices)
Wills du Pizza efte Hamburger an Middags? Ik will beidet- Do you want pizza or hamburgers for lunch? I want both. (as the person wants both, the food together is treated as a collective)
Tüüsch de Hud un die Wanten, welke is beter? Ik mag beide- Between the hat and the mittens, which one is better? I like both. (the person is stating they like each of the two individually, not as a collective whole)
Wow I really screwed up on the writing for that post. Those endings are actually the ones used when used as pronouns while the ones in the post before it are used as determiners.shimobaatar wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019 18:01Oh, then when would the declensions for these kinds of words outlined in the previous post (at the bottom of the first page) be used? Do they take those endings as pronouns, as opposed to determiners? Or are those meant to be the endings that adjectives following them take?
Thanksshimobaatar wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019 18:01Your descriptions of the language's vowel reduction are quite interesting as well.
We'll have to see . I'm still leaning towards not including them
I think it's a very important part of any language and considering how much of this conlang's grammatical peculiarities are based on grammarians working to maintain certain features, I think it's especially important to includeshimobaatar wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019 18:01If I haven't said so before, I really like the inclusion of details regarding how the language used to be/"should" be vs. how typical speakers actually use it now.
You are correct. This pair of words also occurs almost identically in Dutch as afgod/afgodes and afgod is also apparently an obsolete English word as well.shimobaatar wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019 18:01Oh, I like the way this pair of words in particular looks! I assume they mean "idol" in the religious sense, not "someone who is looked up to", judging by the "-god/-goddess" ending.
Sorry I'm going to go back and correct it. What I was basically saying was when the vowels are written as a doubled letter in the chart indicating changes, they may or may not be written as doubled in the actual orthography of the language. Geven is written with one e in the infinitive but is pronounced with a long ee, whereas the form givt is pronounced with a short i. I should have indicated the changes using IPA so I'm going back and changing that nowshimobaatar wrote: ↑03 Jan 2019 18:01 Sorry, but could you perhaps clarify what you mean here? Are these verbs supposed to be "steelen" and "geeven", or are the changes supposed to be e -> ie and e -> i, or am I missing something?
Thanks for all the questions! If you have any more feel free to leave them.
Re: Lapdeutsch
Modal Verbs
Below are the present tense conjugations for modal verbs, all of which are irregular in at least one singular form in the present tense. Although it is not technically a modal verb, witten conjugates like one and so is included. Notice that these verbs may have different meanings compared to Dutch, German, and English usages of their cognates.
Können- Can or Could (when used in the past subjunctive)
Mägen- May or To Be Allowed To or To Like
Müten- Must/Have To or Should (when used in the past subjunctive)
Sollen- Will/Shall or Should (in the sense of possibility when used in the past subjunctive)
Wetten- To Know
Werden- To Become or Will Be or To Be (Passive) or Would (when used in the past subjunctive)
Willen- To Want or Will (if impersonal, in questions, or some phrases) or Would Like (when used in the past subjunctive)
Below are the present tense conjugations for modal verbs, all of which are irregular in at least one singular form in the present tense. Although it is not technically a modal verb, witten conjugates like one and so is included. Notice that these verbs may have different meanings compared to Dutch, German, and English usages of their cognates.
Können- Can or Could (when used in the past subjunctive)
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Last edited by All4Ɇn on 17 Feb 2019 06:26, edited 3 times in total.
Re: Lapdeutsch
-N Verbs
These 5 verbs are arguably the only other verbs that are irregular in the present tense. All of them lack the -en ending in their infinitive instead having simply the ending -n. They do not take the ending -e in the first person singular and although their first/third person plural forms are technically irregular, they are identical to the infinitive like in regular verbs. 4 out of the 5 undergo a vowel change in the second and third person singular forms.
Dun- Do
Gahn- Go
Sehn- See
Slahn- Hit/Beat/Strike
Stahn- Stand
These 5 verbs are arguably the only other verbs that are irregular in the present tense. All of them lack the -en ending in their infinitive instead having simply the ending -n. They do not take the ending -e in the first person singular and although their first/third person plural forms are technically irregular, they are identical to the infinitive like in regular verbs. 4 out of the 5 undergo a vowel change in the second and third person singular forms.
Dun- Do
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Re: Lapdeutsch
Simple Past
As mentioned earlier, the simple past is considered the main past tense form and is the only one used in formal conversation. As you probably imagined, it is formed very similar to how it is in Dutch and German.
Weak Verbs
1st Person Singular: -de
2nd Person Singular: -des
3rd Person Singular: -de
1st Person Plural: -den
2nd Person Plural: -det
3rd Person Plural: -den
Notes
1. Verbs that undergo schwa insertion insert the schwa in all forms thus we teeknen (we draw) -> we teekenden (we drew)
2. Verbs whose stems end in /p k t͡s t͡ʃ f s ʃ ç/ replace the -d with -t in all forms
3. Verbs ending in /t d/ double the consonant in writing but do not pronounce them, thus we närden uns (we approach) & we närdden uns (we approached) are pronounced exactly the same.
Strong Verbs
Strong verbs undergo a vowel change in addition to taking the following endings
1st Person Singular: -
2nd Person Singular: -s
3rd Person Singular: -
1st Person Plural: -en
2nd Person Plural: -et
3rd Person Plural: -en
Here are the different vowel changes present in past tense strong verbs:
Class 1: /ɛɪ̯/ -> /ɛ/, e.g: keiken (to look at) -> du kecks (you looked at)
Class 2 Pattern 1: /œʏ̯/ -> /oː/, e.g: geneuten (to enjoy) -> du genoots (you enjoyed)
Class 2 Pattern 2: /uː/ -> /oː/, e.g: supen (to guzzle) -> du soops (you guzzled)
Class 3 Pattern 1 & 2: /ɪ/ -> /a/, e.g: winnen (to win) -> du wanns (you won)
Class 3 Pattern 3: /ɛ/ -> /a/, e.g: gelden (to be regarded) -> du galds (you were regarded)
Class 4: /eː/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: beren (to give birth) -> du baars (you gave birth)
Class 4 (Irregular): /oː/ -> /ɑː/, only occurs in komen (to come) -> du kaams (you came)
Class 5 Pattern 1: /eː/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: eten (to eat) -> du aats (you ate)
Class 5 Pattern 2: /ɪ/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: sitten (to sit) -> du saats (you sat)
Class 6 Pattern 1: /ɑː/ -> /uː/, e.g: faren (to sail) -> du fuurs (you sailed)
Class 6 Pattern 2: /a/ -> /uː/, e.g: wachsen (to grow) -> du wuuchs (you grew)
Class 6 Pattern 3: /ɛ/ -> /uː/, e.g: swerren (to swear) -> du swuurs (you swore)
Class 7: V -> /iː/, e.g: rupen (to call) -> du rieps (you called)
Notes
1. In addition to undergoing vowel changes, four strong verbs also undergo consonant changes: freusen (to freeze) has the simple past tense stem fror-, hebben (to raise) has the simple past tense stem huv-, houen (to chop) has the simple past tense stem hiev-, and verleusen (to lose) has the simple past tense stem verlor-
2. Strong verbs whose stems ending in -s/-sch/-st/-z have no ending in the second person singular informal form, e.g: du las (you read)
Uutkomen
This separable prefix verb has two separate strong endings depending on the meaning of the verb. Typically this verb means "to be fitting/convenient" or "to come out right/fit together" and when doing so has the exact same conjugation as komen, meaning the past tense stem is kam-...uut. However, when used in its irregular past tense form, quam-...uut, this verb means "to be from/come from". Regardless as to whether it is present or past action, only the irregular past tense form of the verb is used for this meaning thus: "ik quam Mönieken uut" means "I am/come from Munich" or "I was/came from Munich".
Mixed Verbs
I talked about this in an earlier post. Mixed verbs take the same endings as weak verbs but undergo a vowel and sometimes a consonant change in the stem. For the sake of completion with the post, here are the mixed verbs again.
Brennen (Burn): Brannd-
Bringen (Bring): Bracht-
Bruken (Need): Brucht-
Denken (Think): Dacht-
Dünken (Seem): Ducht-
Kennen (Know): Kannd-
Nömmen (Call): Nammd-
Plegen (Do habitually/nurse): Placht-
Rennen (Run): Rannd-
Seggen (Say): Said-
Senden (Send): Sandd-
Süken (Look for): Sucht-
Wenden (Turn): Wandd-
Modal Verbs
Modal verbs are practically the same as mixed verbs in the past tense in that they undergo a vowel and sometimes a stem change while also taking the same past tense endings as weak verbs
Können (Can): Konnd-
Mägen (May/allowed to/like): Mocht-
Müten (Must): Must-
Sollen (Will/shall): Solld-
Wetten (Know): Wist-
Werden (Become/be): Word-
Willen (Want): Wolld-
Other Irregular Verbs
These verbs have irregular stems which are added to strong verb endings
Gahn (Go): Ging-
Heven (Have): Hadd-
Sehn (See): Sag-
Slahn (Hit): Slug-
Stahn (Stand): Stund-
Dun- Do
1st Person Singular: Ded /dɛt/
2nd Person Singular: Deeds
3rd Person Singular: Ded /dɛt/
1st Person Plural: Deden
2nd Person Plural: Dedet
3rd Person Plural: Deden
Sein/Wesen- Be
1st Person Singular: Was /was/
2nd Person Singular: Was /was/
3rd Person Singular: Was /was/
1st Person Plural: Waren
2nd Person Plural: Waart
3rd Person Plural: Waren
As mentioned earlier, the simple past is considered the main past tense form and is the only one used in formal conversation. As you probably imagined, it is formed very similar to how it is in Dutch and German.
Weak Verbs
1st Person Singular: -de
2nd Person Singular: -des
3rd Person Singular: -de
1st Person Plural: -den
2nd Person Plural: -det
3rd Person Plural: -den
Notes
1. Verbs that undergo schwa insertion insert the schwa in all forms thus we teeknen (we draw) -> we teekenden (we drew)
2. Verbs whose stems end in /p k t͡s t͡ʃ f s ʃ ç/ replace the -d with -t in all forms
3. Verbs ending in /t d/ double the consonant in writing but do not pronounce them, thus we närden uns (we approach) & we närdden uns (we approached) are pronounced exactly the same.
Strong Verbs
Strong verbs undergo a vowel change in addition to taking the following endings
1st Person Singular: -
2nd Person Singular: -s
3rd Person Singular: -
1st Person Plural: -en
2nd Person Plural: -et
3rd Person Plural: -en
Here are the different vowel changes present in past tense strong verbs:
Class 1: /ɛɪ̯/ -> /ɛ/, e.g: keiken (to look at) -> du kecks (you looked at)
Class 2 Pattern 1: /œʏ̯/ -> /oː/, e.g: geneuten (to enjoy) -> du genoots (you enjoyed)
Class 2 Pattern 2: /uː/ -> /oː/, e.g: supen (to guzzle) -> du soops (you guzzled)
Class 3 Pattern 1 & 2: /ɪ/ -> /a/, e.g: winnen (to win) -> du wanns (you won)
Class 3 Pattern 3: /ɛ/ -> /a/, e.g: gelden (to be regarded) -> du galds (you were regarded)
Class 4: /eː/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: beren (to give birth) -> du baars (you gave birth)
Class 4 (Irregular): /oː/ -> /ɑː/, only occurs in komen (to come) -> du kaams (you came)
Class 5 Pattern 1: /eː/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: eten (to eat) -> du aats (you ate)
Class 5 Pattern 2: /ɪ/ -> /ɑː/, e.g: sitten (to sit) -> du saats (you sat)
Class 6 Pattern 1: /ɑː/ -> /uː/, e.g: faren (to sail) -> du fuurs (you sailed)
Class 6 Pattern 2: /a/ -> /uː/, e.g: wachsen (to grow) -> du wuuchs (you grew)
Class 6 Pattern 3: /ɛ/ -> /uː/, e.g: swerren (to swear) -> du swuurs (you swore)
Class 7: V -> /iː/, e.g: rupen (to call) -> du rieps (you called)
Notes
1. In addition to undergoing vowel changes, four strong verbs also undergo consonant changes: freusen (to freeze) has the simple past tense stem fror-, hebben (to raise) has the simple past tense stem huv-, houen (to chop) has the simple past tense stem hiev-, and verleusen (to lose) has the simple past tense stem verlor-
2. Strong verbs whose stems ending in -s/-sch/-st/-z have no ending in the second person singular informal form, e.g: du las (you read)
Uutkomen
This separable prefix verb has two separate strong endings depending on the meaning of the verb. Typically this verb means "to be fitting/convenient" or "to come out right/fit together" and when doing so has the exact same conjugation as komen, meaning the past tense stem is kam-...uut. However, when used in its irregular past tense form, quam-...uut, this verb means "to be from/come from". Regardless as to whether it is present or past action, only the irregular past tense form of the verb is used for this meaning thus: "ik quam Mönieken uut" means "I am/come from Munich" or "I was/came from Munich".
Mixed Verbs
I talked about this in an earlier post. Mixed verbs take the same endings as weak verbs but undergo a vowel and sometimes a consonant change in the stem. For the sake of completion with the post, here are the mixed verbs again.
Brennen (Burn): Brannd-
Bringen (Bring): Bracht-
Bruken (Need): Brucht-
Denken (Think): Dacht-
Dünken (Seem): Ducht-
Kennen (Know): Kannd-
Nömmen (Call): Nammd-
Plegen (Do habitually/nurse): Placht-
Rennen (Run): Rannd-
Seggen (Say): Said-
Senden (Send): Sandd-
Süken (Look for): Sucht-
Wenden (Turn): Wandd-
Modal Verbs
Modal verbs are practically the same as mixed verbs in the past tense in that they undergo a vowel and sometimes a stem change while also taking the same past tense endings as weak verbs
Können (Can): Konnd-
Mägen (May/allowed to/like): Mocht-
Müten (Must): Must-
Sollen (Will/shall): Solld-
Wetten (Know): Wist-
Werden (Become/be): Word-
Willen (Want): Wolld-
Other Irregular Verbs
These verbs have irregular stems which are added to strong verb endings
Gahn (Go): Ging-
Heven (Have): Hadd-
Sehn (See): Sag-
Slahn (Hit): Slug-
Stahn (Stand): Stund-
Dun- Do
1st Person Singular: Ded /dɛt/
2nd Person Singular: Deeds
3rd Person Singular: Ded /dɛt/
1st Person Plural: Deden
2nd Person Plural: Dedet
3rd Person Plural: Deden
Sein/Wesen- Be
1st Person Singular: Was /was/
2nd Person Singular: Was /was/
3rd Person Singular: Was /was/
1st Person Plural: Waren
2nd Person Plural: Waart
3rd Person Plural: Waren
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 04 Sep 2020 19:35, edited 4 times in total.
Re: Lapdeutsch
The Demonstrative Pronoun Dat
In addition to being a definite article and relative pronoun, dat is also used as a demonstrative pronoun and has several meanings and usages
This/That or These/Those
Probably the main meaning of the word. Practically the same as in Dutch in that respect.
Dat is gud- That/this is good
Dat sind meine Brüder- Those/these are my brothers/siblings
There
Means there in 2 common expressions:
Dat givt- There is/are (identical in usage to German es gibt)
Dat is/sind- There is/are (identical in usage to German es ist/sind)
Filler Subject
Similar to German, wherein a sentence can be rearranged so that the subject becomes an object and the subject becomes "es", in Lapdeutsch a sentence can rearranged, making dat the subject.
Dat singen drei Vrouen- Three women are singing
Dat koomt ein Storm up- A storm is coming
Impersonal Expressions
Used for impersonal expressions followed by an um...tu infinitive clause:
Dat is jünglik, um ski tu laten- It’s fun to ski
Dat is däprig, um se bei me up tu wecken- It’s important to pay attention to me
Other impersonal expressions typically use “it” including those related to the weather:
It is fein, dat du kaams- It is nice that you came
It raint hüdige- It’s raining today
Object Pronoun
When the object pronoun is "it" and one wishes to place it in first position, it always becomes dat:
Dat hev ik ‘sehn- I saw it
Dat müsten we lesen!- We should read it!
Vowel Reduction
-Unstressed dat when used as a pronoun is typically /dət/
-In informal speech it can be further reduced to ‘t /t/ in exactly the same situations that “it” can: when after a verb/preposition not ending in -d or -t, after other pronouns including those that have the -self ending, when starting off a sentence and followed by a vowel or easy to pronounce consonant/consonant cluster, and as well as some other situations. Thus in informal speech “‘t is mei’ Wain” means both “it is my car” and “that is my car” and not just the former. Dat cannot be reduced to ‘t when being used as a definite article or relative pronoun.
In addition to being a definite article and relative pronoun, dat is also used as a demonstrative pronoun and has several meanings and usages
This/That or These/Those
Probably the main meaning of the word. Practically the same as in Dutch in that respect.
Dat is gud- That/this is good
Dat sind meine Brüder- Those/these are my brothers/siblings
There
Means there in 2 common expressions:
Dat givt- There is/are (identical in usage to German es gibt)
Dat is/sind- There is/are (identical in usage to German es ist/sind)
Filler Subject
Similar to German, wherein a sentence can be rearranged so that the subject becomes an object and the subject becomes "es", in Lapdeutsch a sentence can rearranged, making dat the subject.
Dat singen drei Vrouen- Three women are singing
Dat koomt ein Storm up- A storm is coming
Impersonal Expressions
Used for impersonal expressions followed by an um...tu infinitive clause:
Dat is jünglik, um ski tu laten- It’s fun to ski
Dat is däprig, um se bei me up tu wecken- It’s important to pay attention to me
Other impersonal expressions typically use “it” including those related to the weather:
It is fein, dat du kaams- It is nice that you came
It raint hüdige- It’s raining today
Object Pronoun
When the object pronoun is "it" and one wishes to place it in first position, it always becomes dat:
Dat hev ik ‘sehn- I saw it
Dat müsten we lesen!- We should read it!
Vowel Reduction
-Unstressed dat when used as a pronoun is typically /dət/
-In informal speech it can be further reduced to ‘t /t/ in exactly the same situations that “it” can: when after a verb/preposition not ending in -d or -t, after other pronouns including those that have the -self ending, when starting off a sentence and followed by a vowel or easy to pronounce consonant/consonant cluster, and as well as some other situations. Thus in informal speech “‘t is mei’ Wain” means both “it is my car” and “that is my car” and not just the former. Dat cannot be reduced to ‘t when being used as a definite article or relative pronoun.
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 24 Jun 2019 09:58, edited 5 times in total.
- Creyeditor
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Re: Lapdeutsch
I am curious. What usage are you referring to? Me, as a native German speaker, I have difficulties to think of what you mean, since at least the second one overlaps with what you mention later in the post, IIUC.
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Re: Lapdeutsch
Looking at it from a German perspective you're definitely right in that "es sind" in this meaning is grammatically identical to "es" working as a filler subject. From an English perspective the translation would usually be different for "es sind" in this scenario though as it's working much more as a phrase that'd be translated as "there are". For instance, "es sind drei Kartons auf dem Tisch" would be more naturally translated as "there are three boxes on the table" even though it's just a reorganized form of "drei Kartons sind auf dem Tisch". Hopefully this explanation helped clear it up a bit moreCreyeditor wrote: ↑04 Feb 2019 21:42I am curious. What usage are you referring to? Me, as a native German speaker, I have difficulties to think of what you mean, since at least the second one overlaps with what you mention later in the post, IIUC.
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Re: Lapdeutsch
In Southeast Michigan AAVE “it’s a box on the table” translates into Standard American English as “there is a box on the table”.
Both dialects are as Germanic as any other kind of English.
I doubt AAVE “it is” is a translationism of German “es sind” or vice versa.
I could be wrong.
Both dialects are as Germanic as any other kind of English.
I doubt AAVE “it is” is a translationism of German “es sind” or vice versa.
I could be wrong.
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Re: Lapdeutsch
That’s interesting. I live in the South and I’ve never heard that construction before. I’d imagine it’s not from German but given the high percentage of people of German ancestry in Michigan I can’t entirely rule out the possibility myselfeldin raigmore wrote: ↑04 Feb 2019 23:35 In Southeast Michigan AAVE “it’s a box on the table” translates into Standard American English as “there is a box on the table”.
Both dialects are as Germanic as any other kind of English.
I doubt AAVE “it is” is a translationism of German “es sind” or vice versa.
I could be wrong.
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Re: Lapdeutsch
Thank you for the clarification. Locative usage, that makes senseAll4Ɇn wrote: ↑04 Feb 2019 22:19Looking at it from a German perspective you're definitely right in that "es sind" in this meaning is grammatically identical to "es" working as a filler subject. From an English perspective the translation would usually be different for "es sind" in this scenario though as it's working much more as a phrase that'd be translated as "there are". For instance, "es sind drei Kartons auf dem Tisch" would be more naturally translated as "there are three boxes on the table" even though it's just a reorganized form of "drei Kartons sind auf dem Tisch". Hopefully this explanation helped clear it up a bit moreCreyeditor wrote: ↑04 Feb 2019 21:42I am curious. What usage are you referring to? Me, as a native German speaker, I have difficulties to think of what you mean, since at least the second one overlaps with what you mention later in the post, IIUC.
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Re: Lapdeutsch
Sample Sentences Using Kafka's The Metamorphosis
I've realized that I haven't exactly included many written samples of Lapdeutsch yet so I thought I'd change that. Here are 4 version's illustrating the German-Lapdeutsch continuum using a passage from Kafka's The Metamorphosis. The bolded words are those that differ from the original German either in etymology or in grammar. It's not an exact science as some words simply wouldn't be used in informal speech anyway nowadays in both German and Lapdeutsch like Geschäftsdiener (errand boy in English translation) but I've tried to give a pretty good example of how the differences play out in practice.
Original German
Archaic Lapdeutsch
This is how the original standard of Lapdeutsch would render the passage. This form of the language is completely obsolete in modern speaking but remains in older texts. It is based heavily on Standard German and preserves many features that were not present in spoken language including a complete case system. Many words are seemingly directly from standard German.
Standard Lapdeutsch
This is the how the modern standard of Lapdeutsch would render the passage. This form of the language essentially came about as the result of informal dialects merging with the highly formal & now archaic original standard language. The main differences in this passage versus the previous is the dropping of cases outside of certain expressions.
Very Informal Lapdeutsch
Tried making the passage as informal as I could while still trying to keep the words chosen as similar as possible. Most notable feature is the presence of the informal compound past.
English Translation
I've realized that I haven't exactly included many written samples of Lapdeutsch yet so I thought I'd change that. Here are 4 version's illustrating the German-Lapdeutsch continuum using a passage from Kafka's The Metamorphosis. The bolded words are those that differ from the original German either in etymology or in grammar. It's not an exact science as some words simply wouldn't be used in informal speech anyway nowadays in both German and Lapdeutsch like Geschäftsdiener (errand boy in English translation) but I've tried to give a pretty good example of how the differences play out in practice.
Original German
Spoiler:
This is how the original standard of Lapdeutsch would render the passage. This form of the language is completely obsolete in modern speaking but remains in older texts. It is based heavily on Standard German and preserves many features that were not present in spoken language including a complete case system. Many words are seemingly directly from standard German.
Spoiler:
This is the how the modern standard of Lapdeutsch would render the passage. This form of the language essentially came about as the result of informal dialects merging with the highly formal & now archaic original standard language. The main differences in this passage versus the previous is the dropping of cases outside of certain expressions.
Spoiler:
Tried making the passage as informal as I could while still trying to keep the words chosen as similar as possible. Most notable feature is the presence of the informal compound past.
Spoiler:
Spoiler:
Last edited by All4Ɇn on 24 Jun 2019 10:03, edited 1 time in total.